#1: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:53 pm ---- Hi, I have a peugeot 206 gti 137 bhp 2003
Just latley as it got colder i have noticed on initial start up, without my foot on the throttle it will rev up to 2000rpm then drop to about a 1000rpm and warm up as normal.
But has started to get quite a bit of engine shake when cold at idle, which can be felt from inside the car and when warm i get an intermittant misfire on idle.
Had the car scanned with planet, not showing any fault codes.
Things i have done to try and cure this are-
New plugs ( bosch )
New coil pack (valeo )
New coolant temp sensor
Tried another set of known working injectors
New lambda sensor Pre-cat (bosch)
Tried another ICV ( Came with a spare throttle body i bought )
Im lost now, any ideas on what to try next ?
Thanks. Last edited by jimmmy206 on Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
#2: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:51 pm ---- I've got similar issue in the GTi 180, but just like many others in this forum's past, I'm yet to find a cure.
Unsure if it was a season change or a dying battery, but the car developed random hesitant cranks: starter would spin anywhere between 1 and 10 seconds, hot or cold, before the engine'd finally splutter into life.
Right after that RPMs drop to as low as 500 to a point of stalling, but "climb out" to an idle around 1000.
Yet a random engine judder (like a misfire) would still be felt just like in your case.
I too have replaced various parts, also one you haven't: the MAP sensor, took it out from a CC, same P/N.
There is however one more system in the EW10 engines: from what I heard, GTi 180 ones need the hot combustion air reflown back to the intake during cold starts.
The assembly for GTi 138 is the one below, and hose #9 does not lead back into the intake resonator (on 180 it does)
Another assembly, named the "canister depollution absorber", which consists mainly of breather pipes (but not oil breathers, mind) is listed for all engines, including EW10.
This "gas recycling circuit" assembly is only listed for EW10 engines, thus it's clear these have extra brains/moving parts.
Hence this is the last candidate system I haven't checked surrounding the startup/idle problems, but not got the knowledge how precisely would it affect, if at all.
I'm yet to dig deeper into this, but can't at the moment. All the best and keep us posted!
#3: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:07 pm ---- Hi Sim, I did fit a new map sensor (bosch) but forgot to put on list
I must admit the engine judder at cold does not bother me too much as its only while warming up.
I only mentioned it as not sure if it was all related.
Its more the slight misfire, its just a bit annoying.
I was surprised the scan didnt show anything, nor has it ever thrown any eml light.
Been to one garage they said staight away its the hydraulic lifters, hope not.
If i get chance at the weekend i will locate remove and clean the said pipe if possible.
Hope you get yours sorted.
Thanks for the tip and diagram
#4: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:18 pm ---- Forgot to mention also experiencing engine shake few seconds into the engine start (around the drop to 500 RPM).
Similar rough idle is felt on the CC (TU5 JP4) and also on VorTechS' GTi 180, yet both have no issues starting.
So startup and pulsing idle issues might not be related, but I still hope that "Pulsair" system could interfere with both.
Thanks for the tip from the garage: I'll ask a friend who's done a few engines lately if hydraulic lifters could cause such type of idle.
If you are still stuck, send a video of that juddery idle.
#5: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:38 pm ---- Interesting to note this anomaly on other engines too, our 1.4i 8v (TU3JP) also has the slightly sputter/shaky thing going on albeit with very rare episodes of the near-stall rev drop. All I can add to the discussion is that it's not likely the lifters since the TU3 has "manual" valve clearances and they're all spot on! ( Plus if it was a hydraulic lifter issue on your cars I would expect either loud clattery/tapping top end (lifters collapsed) or hard cold starting getting better with warm weather and eventual valves burning out (lifter pump from excessive oil pressure, too thick a "w" oil grade such as running 15W/40 instead of 5W/40).
EDIT- so perhaps in Jimmy's case it'd be worth double checking you have the correct grade of engine oil in there, I believe it is a thin-ish one so 15 or 20W might well cause cold-start lifter pump.
#6: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:47 pm ---- Hi, Starting the car has never been a problem, as soon as i turn the key it fire's up no hesitation at all.
I change Oil & filter religously every 5,000 miles with total quartz 9000 energy 5w-40, car had 70,000 mile's when i got it now just about to hit 100,00 mile.
The engine judder has only been going on for about a fortnight. But i have been chasing this slight misfire since a previous post from about april last year.
Car came with some previous service history was changed roughly about evey 12,000 mile's, but dont know what grade oil they used.
What i have noticed which seems odd is when ever i have done any work on the car and had the battery disconnected and reset, the car seems to run better but after a week or two it seems too gradually get worse.
Determined to find a cure to this.
Good to hear about lifter's though as i know that's an expensive one.
#7: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:17 pm ---- So yesterday i decided to clen throttle body, with throttle body removed thought i might as well clean breather pipe that runs from rocker cover to throttle body.
Removed pipe and fired it full of carb cleaner, i then noticed it was leaking. There was a little hole in pipe.
I know its a bit of a bodge job but just taped it over with insulation tape just to seal it to see if it made any difference, and fingers crossed it seems to have done the trick.
Went to peugeot dealer today to try and get a replacement but peugeot have stopped making them
Going to try cutting the bad section out and replace with some silicone hose
Car has not reved up on start up and seems to have cured the misfire.
Fingers crossed.
Im not exactly sure what this pipe is for, but it runs from the rocker cover then to a Y section then one goes to the throttle body intake cover and the other passes through the black plastic bracket that the throttle cable goes through.
#8: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:20 pm ---- Nice catch, love it when there's a simple solution to one of these niggles. Honestly, I'd leave it with the tape round if it does the job. Do you see what it was chafing on though?
#9: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:02 pm ---- Hi, Had a good look around nothing stands out, the damaged area looks like its been melted.
Right now just the juddering to sort
If i crack that then i wont have anything to do
#10: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: ekjdm14, Location: CheshirePosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:00 pm ---- Ahh but you will have something to do, the old Pug will throw a curveball your way just when you're getting relaxed about it, they have this knack of knowing & I like to think they do it to keep us out of trouble
Just one thing that jumps out at me, is the '03 137 a "normal" type throttle with a cable? I thought it'd be fly by wire like the 180, but the part in your initial post
Quote::
Tried another ICV ( Came with a spare throttle body i bought )
has me wondering because the fly by wire doesn't use an ICV.
If it is fly by wire then could be worth resetting the auto-adaptives in the engine ECU, I did this on the 180 the other day and it's a different car entirely, no 2k rpm cold start, just straight to about 1200 and seamlessly down to 875ish as it warms. Driveability is much better also.
#11: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:21 pm ---- Yes mine is cable throttle, looks like it was one of the last before they swapped to fly by wire.
Your right, im sure it will give me quite a few more problems to worry about
Had a 205 gti about 25 year ago had nothing but trouble with that ticking over and at the time i sold it i swore i would never buy a peugeot again.
But here i am
sucker for punishment.
#12: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:38 pm ---- Thought i cured it, but as stated in earlier post it must have been the battery disconection that reset things..
Problem has returned, and to check the breather pipe i disconnected it while car was running and it never made a blind bit of difference.
I looked for the parts in the diagram Sim but item's 3 & 7 are not present on mine.
Where item 3 mounts to the cylinder head there is a blanking plate.
#13: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: Sim, Location: West CountryPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:48 pm ---- I should've remembered you have the throttle cable since this post:)
Here's the drawing for your setup:
#14: Re: Start up and idle misfire Author: jimmmy206, Location: DoncasterPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:28 pm ---- Removed and cleaned EGR valve which made no difference, so removed and blanked EGR which guess what, made no difference.
I was suprised that blanking the EGR never gave me any EML.
Oh well.
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